( ESNUG 248 Item 1 ) -------------------------------------------- [8/22/96]
Subject: ( ESNUG 246 #7 ) HDL Sign-off & 3rd Parties Using Synopsys
> John, the company I work for is small, so Paying 100K+ for a DC Expert, an
> HDL Compiler, an Analyzer plus Maintenance is a major investment. We were
> considering an HDL hand off and let the ASIC Vendor do the synthesis and
> Layout (including P&R). ... I have heard that some Silicon
> Vendors provide a design center that allows you to come in use their tool
> set, which may or may not include Synopsys. ... Synopsys says
> that a customer that purchases the Synopsys synthesis tools must output
> only HDL (no gates) otherwise they are breaking the licenses agreement.
> I also heard that LSI supposedly used Synopsys to develope some of their
> cores and sell the cores to customers that use their FAB. Synopsys says
> this is unethical. What are your feelings on these issues ?
From: [ The Mystery Motorola Man ]
John, please sign me as anon Motorola. Too many politics here.
Anyway, this depends on what the user means by HDL hand-off. If you want to
send in your HDL and get a guarantee that timing in silicon is matched, then
I guess that there are only a few silicon vendors that do this. However,
there are numberous silicon vendors that provide design centers in centrally
located areas (San Jose, Chicago, Boston, etc.) to allow you to use their
tools / licenses for synthesis to their technology. Also, if Synopsys
synthesis tools do not output to gates, then what are they supposed to
output? Are you referring to only Behavioral Compiler?
Concerning the LSI not being able to sell their Synopsys synthesized cores:
Wow - that is something new! Does this imply that Synopsys is making some
sort of legal claim to any design that makes the transition from HDL to
gates via their tools?? I don't think this is factually correct. Plenty
of companies have been selling Synopsys synthesized designs for years.
- [ The Mystery Motorola Man ]
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From: ryan@fsd.com (Ken Ryan)
John,
Atmel advertises the capability to take an RTL description as database input.
I don't personally know anyone who's done this. Perhaps Synopsys' lawyers
have a broad definition of "renting" software? To me, a vendor taking HDL
as input is performing a turnkey design service based more on their expertise
than happening to use a particular synthesis program. You're hiring them
as a design consultant or a subcontractor as well as a fab house.
Regarding LSI's cores, I can't comment on legality or license agreements but
surely there isn't an ethical problem - it's like Microsoft having control
over your publishing and selling a book written with Microsoft Office.
Especially in the case Steve described - LSI is really selling a piece of
silicon that has their design on it (the core) that happens to be integrated
with someone else's design (the customer). Do they sell cores to competing
fabs? I doubt it (though I don't see a problem with that either).
Thanks, John, for running a valuable service!
- Ken Ryan
Orbital Sciences Corp.
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From: blogs@telxon.com (Brian Logsdon)
I know that LSI Logic has been working on some form HDL sign-off for years.
Seems to me that if LSI Logic developed the core, they sure aren't going to
give you the source code to synthesize. T he source code (and the synthesis
scripts) are intellectual property. Sounds like the olde pressure tactic
by the Synopsys sales force.
Hmmm... Synopsys talking about ethics. Does the term oxymoron mean
anything here?
- Brian Logsdon
Telxon Corporation
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From: jcooley@world.std.com (John Cooley)
Concerning HDL sign-off and Synopsys cutting deals allowing various ASIC
foundries to let designers have free access to their synthesis tools, I've
always been kind of stumped by this. Where's the "win" for an EDA developer
to let foundries effectively give away the use of their software for free?
Sure, I like bashing various EDA vendors when they technically screw up just
as much as the next guy -- but I'm fully aware that there is no such thing
as a free lunch. I have this silly economic idea that those who provide
value (whether it be in the form of a hot EDA tool or in serving up a good
dish of Pad Thai noodles) should be directly rewarded for their work so
they continue to do what they do. LSI doing HDL sign-off directly translates
into Synopsys losing synthesizer sales. Why would Synopsys agree to this?
It just doesn't make sense in my limited, sheep farming world view. It
sort of reminds me of that Country Western song about divorce. It's titled:
"She Got The Gold Mine, I Got The Shaft."
- John Cooley
the ESNUG guy
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