( ESNUG 388 Item 16 ) -------------------------------------------- [02/27/02]
Subject: ( ESNUG 386 #2 ) Francine Spanked By 16 Users For Her "Sour Grapes"
> Verisity has been a member of Synopsys' in-Sync program for several years
> and Synopsys is a member of our interoperability program, VIP. This year,
> for the first time, we were informed that we (Verisity) would not be
> allowed to participate (as we always have) in the vendor fair that is
> always held during SNUG. ... Was it perhaps that we are competitors? Is
> favoritism being given to those companies that are helping to push Synopsys
> standards? Is this truly in Aart's stated spirit of interoperability and
> competition? Or is it in fact Synopsys trying to choose for the customer
> rather than listening to the customers?
>
> Perhaps interoperability and competition are only important when it is
> Synopsys that is trying to compete against Cadence.
>
> - Francine Ferguson
> Verisity Design, Inc. Mt. View, CA
From: "Leah Clark" <xlc@cypress.com>
Hi John -
It's funny, I was actually offended when I read what Francine said. It
seems that she has never actually been to SNUG, or she would know that
there's nothing about it that's "pushing" Synopsys' marketing agenda. The
SNUG Tech Committee is led by a non-Synopsys employee, and is responsible
for determining paper acceptance. The content of the papers is 100% up to
the authors, with the exception that no marketing content of any kind is
allowed. The tutorials are very technical in nature, and the only
*possible* marketing content is in Aart's address. That's it.
I have been involved with SNUG in some form for 5 or 6 years now, and have
always been impressed at the resources Synopsys dedicates to the group, from
a full-time (non technical!) conference organizer to the incentives given
industry presenters and tech committee members. I think it's an impressive
show of dedication to the users and their issues, without the overhead of
marketing content.
I'd be happy to go on about this, but I'll stop here. I hope you will let
Francine know that her accusations are without ground, and that she's
probably already pissed off a lot of Synopsys users and SNUG attendees.
- Leah Clark
Cypress Semiconductors
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From: "Steve Golson" <sgolson@trilobyte.com>
Hi, John,
Francine wonders why Verisity is excluded and speculates "Was it perhaps
that we are competitors?". I seriously doubt that! After all, Cadence
and Mentor will be there. I suspect there is more to this than Ms. Ferguson
would have us think, and that Verisity caused some of this mixup themselves.
Methinks Verisity doth protest too much.
Anyway, SNUG is much more than the interoperability fair. I've been
attending SNUG for over ten years, I've authored several papers, and I'm
currently on the technical committee helping to select and review user
papers. The important letter in SNUG is not the S for Synopsys, but the U
for Users! I go to meet my fellow designers and see what great new ideas
I can glean from them.
Plus, the food is great! See you in San Jose.
- Steve Golson
Trilobyte Systems
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From: Erich Whitney <ewhitney@axiowave.com>
Hi John,
The people that attend SNUG are smart enough to smell a rat a mile away.
I've been on both sides of this issue being a former Synopsys employee
myself. And I can assure you that the marketing folks are well away from
the internals of the conference. In fact, it always kind of bothered me
when I worked for Synopsys and attended SNUG that I couldn't really say what
was going on because of the fact that we didn't want to be in any way seen
as trying to do marketing. It was strictly business and we spent countless
hours preparing the Synopsys SNUG presentations to keep them 100% factual
and accurate.
Quite frankly, I don't have much time for people who want to spread this
kind of FUD. I have been and continue to be extremely proud of the SNUG
folks.
- Erich Whitney
Axiowave
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From: Mark Sprague <msprague@ati.com>
Hi, John,
There is a requirement that the papers be related somehow to Synopsys tools.
However, I've reviewed several papers that have used other companies
tools for parts of their flows.
My guess is that if a Cadence employee proposed a paper on getting good
clock tree results from a Power Compiler design, or tricks to interface
PhysOpt with the Cadence back end, these would be well received.
I don't know what happened that caused Francine's claim, but at least from
my naive view, it sounds like sour grapes more than anything.
- Mark Sprague
ATI
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From: "Al Czamara" <czamara@zaiqtech.com>
Hi, John.
I remember Francine's comment. My impression was "sour grapes," so I didn't
give it much credence. Standing in her shoes, however, I would likely feel
slighted, too. If Verisity were the only company omitted from the vendor
fair at SNUG, I'd start thinking something smelled rotten. If not, I'd
want to sanity check how emotionally involved I let myself become to the
decision.
- Al Czamara
Zaiq Technologies, Inc. Marlboro, MA
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: "Rodney Pesavento" <rodney.pesavento@corrent.com>
John,
A paper I reviewed for SNUG'02 didn't mention a Synopsys tool. Synopsys
complained that the examples didn't cover VCS. I did ask the author to add
a note that similar techniques could be used in VCS. Synopsys was happy
and the paper really didn't change. So, no I don't think Synopsys controls
SNUG too much.
- Rodney Pesavento
Corrent
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: "Clifford E. Cummings" <cliffc@sunburst-design.com>
Hi, John,
I don't think competition was the reason Verisity was not invited to the
SNUG vendor night this year. I think the bigger issue is space availability
and a judgement call on the part of Synopsys (the "tiered" system). I see
plenty of Synopsys competitors at the fair each year and have marveled that
they were even invited. I have tried to get booth space at the fair a few
times myself to promote my Verilog language and synthesis classes but I
think there is more interest in tools that relate to the core synthesis and
simulation businesses than there is in my training. I believe every vendor
at the fair is an In-Sync partner and I believe every vendor at the fair
would argue that their tools and services are vitally important to SNUG
attendees (whether they are or not - I know my training booth would be the
most attended booth at the conference ;-)
That having been said, I personally would like to see Verisity return to
the SNUG vendor fairs. Maybe Francine has flagged their absence in a public
enough way to encourage SNUG attendees to subpoena the presence of Verisity
at future vendor fairs by noting it on their SNUG conference evaluation
forms. If there are lots of requests, I think Verisity will make a swift
return. No requests might show that the attendees have other primary
interests at this conference.
- Cliff Cummings
Sunburst Design, Inc. Beaverton, OR
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From: Brian Kane <briank@torrentnet.com>
Hi John,
I know that Cadence always has a small booth at SNUG, Avanti was usually
there and I remember Plato presenting NanoRoute in Boston SNUG last year
which was after Synopsys Route Compiler had been announced. I'm sure
there are other examples that I can't think of off the top of my head.
I don't think that SNUG is driven by the Synopsys Marketing agenda since
the user papers and tutorials make up over 90% of the conference.
- Brian Kane
Ericsson IP Infrastructure
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From: Peet James <peetj@qualis.com>
Hi, John,
The only marketing that sometimes might get through is by some presenter
trying to promote their company (not Synopsys, but some other EDA company.)
This is one of the main tasks of the SNUG Tech Commitee, to weed marketing
out and to ensure good, technical user content. I think they accomplish
this task well, but every once and awhile (maybe twice that I can think of
in the last 5 years) someone slips some marketing by. I know guys on the
Verisity Club V committee and I believe they have the same goal to
ensure good technical user content and stamp out marketing pitches.
- Peet James
Qualis Design Laffayette, CO
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From: "Darell Whitaker" <darell@us.ibm.com>
John,
While I see where companies competing in Synopsys arenas may think that
Synopsys is using SNUG as a marketing venue, I have to disagree. The only
area where marketing poop is done, besides the vendor fair, is the keynote
address. (Sorry, Art.)
The SNUG tutorial sessions can't be beat for value. Not everyone can afford
the bucks to go to a formal Synopsys class, but can afford the price for the
conference.
- Darell Whitaker
IBM
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From: "Tim Wilson" <tim.l.wilson@intel.com>
John,
The SNUG Technical Committee works hard to screen out marketing pitches by
the presenters. The process of selecting User Papers is driven by the SNUG
Technical Committee and not by Synopsys Marketing.
- Tim Wilson
Intel
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From: "Christopher Kiegle" <ckiegle@us.ibm.com>
Hey John,
To be honest, the SNUG Vendor Fair is at the bottom of my list in terms of
SNUG value. The user papers are at the top. It's nice to hear about other
tools, but there are other forums for that, like DAC.
I'm sure floorspace is also a concern at SNUG, too, since the vendor spaces
spilled out into the hall last year.
- Chris Kiegle
IBM
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From: Stefan Scharfenberg <Stefan.Scharfenberg@motorola.com>
Hi John,
Well SNUG is a bit Synopsys biased, but that's no surprise after all it is
a Synopsys User Group meeting. I think everybody involved tries to be as
objective and neutral as possible. That's what I have seen on ESNUG and
during my time as a Tech Committee member. Calling SNUG a marketing puppet
is by far exaggerated.
I do see that Synopsys people pay a lot of attention to SNUG, but that's
not a bad thing. We use SNUG sometimes to get things done faster. Things
that Synopsys did not react upon quickly enough or to our satisfaction,
suddenly become more important if they appear in the public in SNUG/ESNUG.
- Stefan Scharfenberg
Motorola GmbH Munich, Germany
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From: Don Mills <mills@lcdm-eng.com>
John,
This is what I would expect from a Marketeer trying to degrade the
competition. Just last year there was a paper submitted on the flow and
application of Test Languages (Vera or E from Verisity). The paper did not
mention any tool specifically, therefore it came under the category of
"generic flow" and was accepted. I (as Chair) got calls from the Vera
group telling me that the paper had to be pulled because the author did
not use Vera. The Vera group could not believe that we would permit a
paper to be presented from an author that used E from Verisity. The
paper was accepted because it only discussed flow and methodology.
A few years back, there was a paper submitted that discussed comparisons
between different synthesis tools. I again was called (as Chair) and asked
to have the paper pulled. In this case, because the paper was discussing non
Synopsys tools, there was some merit to the request. The paper was presented
at SNUG. In fact, it was one of the few papers ever presented in which
Synopsys offered a rebuttal to the paper. It was great.
- Don Mills
LCDM Engineering, Inc. Utah
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: Gil Herbeck <gilherbeck@attbi.com>
John,
I think Francine's questions are legitimate. I'm not crying foul. At some
point there will be more interested vendors than available space at the
fair. Someone's going to be left out.
- Gil Herbeck
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From: "Ahmad Salah Ammar" <asammar@canada.com>
Hello John,
I'm actually shocked that such a statement was made. I've been on the Tech
Committee for SJ and Boston SNUG for about 2 years and I definitely did not
sense this, not even remotely. My experience has been that SNUG is
extremely user-driven.
I don't think I would be stretching it if I said that the statement is an
insult to the members of the Tech Committee! Just because Synopsys supports
the conference and probably benefits from it somehow does not make it a
puppet organization used to push the Synopsys Marketing agenda. I don't
think it is too much to ask Ms. Ferguson to support her statement with some
concrete incidents/examples!
- Ahmad Salah Ammar
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